Help Teach

Help Teach: Episode 11 - Outside Looking In

Mihai Covaser: [00:00:00] Welcome, learners and learned alike, to Help Teach.

Mihai Covaser: Hello and welcome to our community audio project. I am your host, editor, producer, and project co-lead: Mihai Covaser. I am also a youth living with a physical disability. My most formative experiences living with a disability have come in the Canadian public education system. Many students like me, with physical, emotional, or mental challenges, go through their years of schooling lacking the supports and accommodations they need to partake of the same opportunities offered to their peers. The vision of this project is to provide educators in Canadian classrooms, students with disabilities, and members of the general public, with the tools and knowledge that they need to make our institutions more accessible and inclusive for all. Join me and a diverse cast of guests as we explore perspectives on disabilities and education in this podcast series. [00:01:00] One last message for you teachers tuning in: Listen in each episode for our key takeaway that you can implement in your classroom today to help us further this vision.

Mihai Covaser: Hello and welcome back to Help Teach. I am glad to have the audience back, and to be back in the studio with one of my co-leads for this project. So I’d love to welcome to the show: Maggie Manning. Maggie, welcome back.

Maggie Manning: Thank you, Mihai. I’m super excited to be back.

Mihai Covaser: So, for our audience members that are maybe tuning in for the first time, if they like this episode and would like to come back and hear you, why don’t you tell us where we heard you last?

Maggie Manning: Yeah! So the last time I was on, just myself, was episode two, which is “To P.E. or Not to P.E.”. Dun dun dun. And then I was also on the group episode, on episode six.

Mihai Covaser: So Maggie, since the last time we’ve talked, it’s been a little while–I’m glad to have you back– [00:02:00] from episode two to episode eleven, it’s a bit of a jump there. But I’m glad to have you back in the studio. How have things been since we last talked?

Maggie Manning: You know, things have been absolutely insane. I’ve been super busy and just trying to get back on track, really.

Mihai Covaser: So you started school again this year?

Maggie Manning: I did. I’m in my last year of didactic school, and then I’m going into clinical, which is where I’ll be working in the hospital for a year.

Mihai Covaser: Oh, awesome. Okay. And that’s in respiratory therapy, correct?

Maggie Manning: It is, yeah.

Mihai Covaser: Awesome, awesome. So, in terms of events or something that have happened in the past while, is there anything you want to mention to our audience? Some events you’ve been a part of, maybe, that might be interesting for them to look forward to in the future? I’m totally giving you the opportunity to plug yourself! If you’d like to take it.

Maggie Manning: Oh, I love that. Yeah, so doing a lot of work with the Rick Hansen Foundation, with an incredible co-lead. I don’t know who it could be, Mihai.

Mihai Covaser: [00:03:00] Hey, you’re making me blush.

Maggie Manning: But yeah! You know, we’ve had some incredible opportunities. Last year, we spoke at the Global Disability Summit, and now coming up, we’re doing a webinar for International Day of Persons with Disability.

Mihai Covaser: Absolutely. Audience members, by the time this episode is coming out, the webinar will have passed. At this point, we are speaking to you from the past, so we are looking forward to it. But yes! If you’d like to tune in to a recorded version of this webinar, then by all means; you can find it in the episode notes, and maybe some of you were actually there and were able to see it live, so thank you very much if you did tune in. You did mention another event that I’d love to get into, to sort of kick off our conversation for today, because if we take things back in time–as you say, almost a full year now, we spoke–Maggie and I both, along with some of my other co-leads for this very project–at something called the Global Disability Summit. Speaking of webinars and opportunities to speak, that was a really great opportunity, I think. So why don’t you just briefly introduce [00:04:00] that for our guests, what it was about.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, for sure. So at the Global Disability Summit, there was a panel of a bunch of youth, and we tackled issues surrounding youth with disabilities, specifically. So we shared our lived experience, we shared about the Rick Hansen Foundation, and this was a really great opportunity to bridge that gap of exposure to people with disabilities.

Mihai Covaser: Why don’t you tell us a bit more about that? How was the Summit good for exposure?

Maggie Manning: Yeah, for sure. So what I’m speaking of, in terms of exposure, is disability in the media, and in society in general. I think that it’s an issue that a lot of different minorities are dealing with: getting attention and being able to share just the basics, you know; how disability affects life, what needs to be done, how we can target those goals. It is a huge deal, and so having a platform like the Global Disability Summit’s almost as big as you can get, and so to be able to speak on a panel there was an incredible honor.

Mihai Covaser: [00:05:00] Absolutely. You know, we speak a lot about advocacy on this show, and I think it’s important to recognize that there are so many different ways, right, that we can be advocates, that anyone can be an advocate. Part of that is, as you say, just exposing the general populace to information that they might not otherwise have. I think it really does help to change minds. That’s the whole point of–especially doing this show and sharing lived experiences, just to hear someone talk about their life, not only as a person with disability, but also as a person who’s involved in society at every step of the way and as someone you’d just see on the street, especially with invisible disabilities, you know, where you don’t see that they may have obstacles. I think changing that mindset is difficult, but I think it really does make a difference, and that’s what our webinars are gonna be about, too.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, it’s such an important idea and you know, now that we have social media, there’s a lot more visible exposure. You can go and search up accounts that do some advocacy work [00:06:00], or certain individuals, but that really wasn’t the case not even that long ago. I think that idea of kind of mentoring also comes into that, that being able to expose yourself to people with disabilities helps those who may be more isolated kinda understand that they’re not alone.

Mihai Covaser: Yeah, and being able to build community through, as you say, social media; I mean, that’s one of the big selling points, right, of all these media networks and why they’ve become so popular, is they link communities all over and we’re one of them. You told me a bit of a story, while we were planning, about exposure; a story of exposure from your own experience in sport, that I thought was really interesting. I was wondering if you could maybe share that for our audience.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, for sure. I think that probably one of the biggest things, in terms of exposure, is the story of this little guy who I mentor. I mentor him mostly in sports–in para sports–because I swam at a pretty high level, and so I started getting asked to come [00:07:00] and evaluate this little boy from my hometown who has a disability, and I was super excited, because I was like, “Oh my gosh, another one!” Because it’s so hard to find para swimmers, especially in such a small community, so immediately, I was like, “Yes, I’m coming,” first of all. And so I did a little evaluation, and then afterwards, I brought back this sledge for sledge hockey–or para ice hockey–and I told him, like, “If you wanna go out this weekend–” because I ended up staying at my parents’ for the weekend, and I said, “Why don’t we go out and give it a try?” And I think that was one of the best moments for me, because he got out on the ice and his family came, and that was the first time that they were able to do that kind of activity all together, which was something super special, and you could just see–It wasn’t even that he loved the sport, it was just he loved being out there with everybody and not having a barrier to participation.

Mihai Covaser: Mm, mm. So the whole family got out on the ice and they got to skate and sledge together?

Maggie Manning: Yeah! And I mean, some of them were at the boards, [00:08:00] but just like supporting him at all, which is so great to see, and I remember him telling me, just being like, “I could never keep up with people and now I can.” And I remember that feeling firsthand, and so to hear that from somebody else was just–It’s heartwarming.

Mihai Covaser: Aw, absolutely. I think being someone, not only with a disability who maybe doesn’t know all of the opportunities that are out there or doesn’t, for example, have access to someone like you to mentor them or to guide them into those activities–Aside from that, when we’re talking about exposure, it’s also people without lived experience, I think, that can face some of these barriers to accessibility to our world, which is a funny, kind of ironic thing to say, that people without a disability have accessibility issues into our world, but I think it’s true, in some ways. And a lot of people can face frustration getting into disability advocacy, if they don’t have those mentors [00:09:00] and that experience around them. That is exactly the topic I wanna get into next. Just before we get there, don’t go anywhere, audience members; we’re gonna take a quick break, after which, we’ll come back and I will speak with Maggie Manning on exactly this issue of trying to enter advocacy as someone without lived experience. Don’t go anywhere; we’ll be right back.

Mihai Covaser: Welcome back to Help Teach. I’m here today with Maggie Manning, who is back on the show, and we’re just getting into this subject of entering the world of advocacy–or of exposure to disability–without lived experience or without having a disability yourself, which can be quite a frustrating experience for some people. I wonder maybe–Maggie, do you wanna talk to that and to the story that you told me on that subject?

Maggie Manning: Yeah, I would love to share my experiences. This kinda goes back to [00:10:00] the Global Disability Summit that we were speaking about. I have a great support network around me, my friends and family, and they all went to support me in that, and so they all attended, which was super incredible to have them all there. But afterwards, there was some frustration, and I have a great roommate; she’s a great friend and she supports me in everything. She also wanted to support me in becoming an advocate, and so she took that information that she learned at the Global Disability Summit–a lot of the stuff we talked about was very large goals–and she wanted to implement them, just like we do, and she found it very frustrating. She found it hard, and she came to me almost–not that long ago, so probably like eight months after–and she said, “I am so frustrated.” And you know, I didn’t know what to say, because I was like, “Well, why?” And she looks at me and she’s like, “I’m trying to do these things that you recommended; I’m trying to ask questions, I’m trying to push barriers. You know, if there’s a survey, [00:11:00] I always make sure they have something about accessibility, those types of things.” She said, “It’s just so looked-over. It’s always missed.” I find that frustrating, obviously, and it’s just–To hear it again from somebody who’s just starting their kind of advocacy work, to see that there’s still that kind of frustration, is–Well, it’s sad, but ultimately, we’re all gonna work together to break those barriers down.

Mihai Covaser: Right, and it’s something that you told me before, and I think it’s absolutely true, that as people who have worked in advocacy for a number of years, you almost get used to it, right? As unfortunate as it is to say, these obstacles, they will come time and again, and you just kind of learn to take from those experiences lessons that you then implement to further your work. I think back to elementary school, when I was in the fourth grade–I think I’ve told this story on the show maybe twice already–but the fourth grade gym class [00:12:00] story that I tell everywhere, and it’s not to beat a dead horse, but it’s to say that that kind of experience at a very young age; it can be very scarring. And that frustration, for some people, sticks, and that’s the unfortunate part. Not everyone has the opportunity or gains the knowledge to be able to move past the frustration into the advocacy, which is, I think, what makes it so hard to access for some.

Maggie Manning: Totally. I mean, when she first came to me, I was like, “Well, is it me? Did I make these goals too big? Or am I talking beyond what is possible?” But ultimately, it’s not; it’s just something that we deal with so often, that we’ve become attuned to it. We’re just so used to it, and so to hear that from somebody else, I’m like, “Yeah, you know, that’s not right! We need to change that!” You know, it was pretty eye-opening, and to be able to have such great friends [00:13:00] and family, that they want to support me in my advocacy and they want to help advocate, not only for me, but also people with disabilities in general…I mean, it’s an honor, because those are real, true friends.

Mihai Covaser: Mm, mm. That’s a big part of this whole concept of community building that I think we talk about quite a bit. There are differing opinions on this in the community of people with disabilities, on how much that community does or should have an impact on one’s life or one’s identity. I think we’ve heard discussions from a variety of people, even between you and I, or friends of ours, that have differing opinions on this; where some people are very proud of this identity and of the community that they can build, and some people–and I think I’m in this latter camp–desire more to generate a larger community between people without disability and people with disability. But each method comes with its own challenges. For someone like me, I mean, [00:14:00] I would be perfectly happy to be able to enter my workplace or my school, or what have you, and just have my disability be a non-issue. For me to be able to access every building and every built environment in such a way that I can just walk in and participate like anybody else; but for some people, it’s more important to forge that strong community with others with similar experience and to have that identity stay strongly with you. Those opinions are different, I think, across the community.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, they definitely are, and I think that’s such an interesting conversation to have, because for me, I’m kind of in the first group, where I really strongly identify as a person with a disability, and that time with other people with disabilities is really valued to me. Ultimately, yes, I’m like in this awkward place where I want the best of both worlds, you know; like I want to have my identity in my community, but I also, on the other hand–just like you–I want to be able to walk in wherever, and when I’m getting hired, I don’t want to have to be like, “Oh, I’m gonna need a stool, [00:15:00] like I can’t stand for that long,” you know? But there’s just this balance and I think that’s where that advocacy work kinda fits in, is bridging the gap between both of those worlds.

Mihai Covaser: You’re right, and I think–speaking of those frustrations–there’s this question that arises as to: who is allowed to have what conversations? And this is a frustrating issue to me, because I make this distinction between discourse and debate, where discourse: you try to find the best of what your interlocutor is saying, the person you’re speaking to; you find the best parts of what they are talking about, help to strengthen them, and then if you disagree, you bring your own arguments against it, but it’s constructive, whereas debate can be very destructive. And it frustrates me that there are opinions, strong opinions sometimes, in the disability community or in any community that’s tight-knit, where somehow, if you’re not part of it, you’re not allowed to take part in those conversations, or you’re not allowed to [00:16:00] help advocate, because somehow you’re undermining the goal. That’s always frustrated me, because it seems ridiculous that you should be unable to share ideas, and even if there’s something in those ideas that maybe is biased or prejudiced or there’s something that someone would recommend you change, how are you gonna find out unless you’re sharing it? So anyway, that’s something that I’ve thought about a lot, and at events like the Disability Summit or like the webinars or anything else, it’s great to talk to other people with similar experience and bring that knowledge forward; that is definitely one key piece for sharing information, but inviting people into our conversations with us, I think, is really important, too.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, you’re totally right, and you know, Mihai, this is something that also we discussed with my roommate, is–She was so frustrated, because, you know, we do these webinars and I’m always preaching, “Just ask.” I’d rather you ask about my disability than assume, because it’s so easy to see someone in a wheelchair and be like, “Well, [00:17:00] I assume they’re paralyzed, because x-y-z.” But you don’t know. I know for me personally, as a person with disability, when you see me walking around, whether it be with a brace or with crutches, I’d rather–when a little kid points me out, I’d rather their parent just say, “Why don’t you ask her?” And so then I can give them a proper answer and explain it, because seeing people with disabilities in the community is an important part of realizing that: hey, people have differences and that’s okay, and here’s how we’re gonna move forward and make the world more accessible and inclusive. My roommate was super frustrated because I’m an advocate, I am always pushing for accessibility and inclusion, but I’m not perfect. Nobody’s perfect, and I think that there was this one instance that she brought up, where we were at wheelchair basketball; I brought her along because often in para sport–here’s a little para sport plug–you don’t have to be disabled. Honestly in communities, the majority are able-bodied who are playing, and so I brought her to wheelchair basketball, and she– [00:18:00] she did exactly what I said. She asked people, she was like, “Hey, like what’s your disability?” And I got all squeamish, and there was no reason for me to. This is why I’m not perfect; I was like, “Oh my gosh, like she’s asking people things, like I feel so uncomfortable.” And I told her, I was like, “Maybe not right now.” That was me getting caught up in the best of both worlds. I want people to ask, right, and I advocate about that all the time, and I’m like, “Just ask, just ask.” But then at the same time, somebody asked and I was like, “Oh my gosh, like somebody actually did it.” And I was so taken aback that I didn’t know what to do, and I felt like at wheelchair basketball, it’s like, “Oh, we’re all on the court, we’re all equal, so like probably not the best time.” And I caught myself telling her that, and I was like, “That makes no sense.” Like all the time, I’m like, “Just ask,” and then she asks, and I’m like, “No, don’t do that.” You know?

Mihai Covaser: Yeah.

Maggie Manning: But we’re not perfect, and I think that’s something, as advocates, it’s really important to realize.

Mihai Covaser: Yeah! No, absolutely, and these are experiential journeys that we are still on, and it can be really tough [00:19:00] to at once believe that something is the right course of action and then, when you grew up in an environment where that was so frowned upon or if for some–for whatever reason that that idea came to mind that that’s uncomfortable to you, it’s tough to break through that sometimes, but that’s exactly why we do what we do, or at least why I do what I do, and that’s to encourage everyone who has thoughts on the matter to be free to voice those opinions, to be willing to ask, and it’s a process that we’ll refine over and over, because then it comes down to individuals, right? As we say, maybe some people are more comfortable with it, maybe some less, and that’s okay, too. It’s like anything else; if someone breaks their arm and comes to school in a cast, and they don’t want to be asked about it, they don’t want to be asked about it! It’s not all that different. But that’s exactly why I think outreach and exposure, as we opened the show with that subject, are so valuable [00:20:00] to the process of learning.

Maggie Manning: Ultimately, I think that’s really where advocacy work is moving towards. With time, things start to change and even challenging our own experiences, like me feeling uncomfortable in that situation, was there a reason? When I’m preaching that you should ask everybody and then I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is so uncomfortable.” But that’s just how it’s been, and then all of a sudden, it’s just not like that anymore. And I was so taken aback and so that was a special moment, because I was like, “Wow, look at how far we’ve come that that’s just something that’s okay now,” you know?

Mihai Covaser: Mm, absolutely. I think that takes us really well to our key takeaway for this episode. What we wanna offer to the audience is this idea that if you try to engage with some kind of outreach event, some deliberate opportunity that someone has put out into your community to share their experience, or to invite you to share your ideas, engaging with those as often as possible really does help to start building an environment of thought, not only of action, [00:21:00] but also a mindset environment that is so beneficial to our work as advocates. For example, you could try to go to something that someone puts on, even once every other month. Trust me, you’ll find them. For example, the webinar that we put on with the Rick Hansen Foundation school program all the time; not only in Canada or North America, but all around the world. And from that, you can begin to understand the messages that different advocates are trying to share, and you may find conflicting opinions, as we’ve talked about on this episode today, but that’s all about deciding for yourself what you would like to support and what steps you think might be most important to helping this journey. To speak to that frustration of your roommate’s with large goals and with seeing monolithic structures, almost, that we’re trying to change, making small, achievable, smart goals works just as well for advocacy as anything else. I mean, that’s why I give key takeaways; that’s why we do [00:22:00] what we do, because those little changes that you can start to make can make you feel like you really have the power to make change, and I think that’s what’s really important, in the community.

Maggie Manning: Yeah, I totally agree.

Mihai Covaser: Well, Maggie, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you today, and hopefully, we’ll have you on again sometime soon.

Maggie Manning: Thank you, Mihai. I love what you’re doing here, so I’m honored to be on another episode.

Mihai Covaser: You’ve just heard another episode of the community audio project, Help Teach. I’d love to give a huge thank you to my other co-leads on this project, Payton Given, Maggie Manning, Élise Doucet, and Alexis Holmgren, all youth leaders at the Rick Hansen Foundation, who I’d also like to thank for their continued support in this initiative and others. I’d like to give a huge shout-out to our community mentor for this project, Charl Coetzee. My name is Mihai Covaser. I am your host, editor, and producer for this podcast series. You can now find all our transcripts, episode notes, and links to other resources on Transistor.fm, [00:23:00] or listen to us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. If you have any questions about the show, if you’d like to offer suggestions, or you would like to be connected as a guest, you can now get in touch at helpteachpodcast@gmail.com. That’s helpteachpodcast@gmail.com. Please send in any questions that you might have regarding our episodes, and we would love to address them in future ones. Tune in next time for more great conversations and key takeaways that you educators can implement in the classroom today, to make it a more accessible and inclusive place for all. Thank you for listening, and I’ll see you next time.