Help Teach

Episode 27 - Beyond the Swing
[00:00:00] Mihai Covaser: Welcome, learners and learned alike, to Help Teach!
[00:00:09] Mihai Covaser: Hello, and welcome to our community audio project. I am your host, editor, producer, and project co-lead, Mihai Covaser. I'm also a youth living with a physical disability. My most formative experiences living with a disability have come in the Canadian public education system. Many students, like me, with physical, emotional, or mental challenges go through their years of schooling lacking the supports and accommodations they need to partake of the same opportunities offered to their peers.
[00:00:39] Mihai Covaser: The vision of this project is to provide educators in Canadian classrooms, students with disabilities, and members of the general public with the tools and knowledge that they need to make our institutions more accessible and inclusive for all. Join me and a diverse cast of guests as we explore perspectives on disabilities in education in this podcast series.
[00:01:02] Mihai Covaser: One last message for you teachers tuning in. Listen in each episode for our key takeaway that you can implement in your classroom today to help us further this vision.
[00:01:15] Mihai Covaser: Hello and welcome to Season Three of Help Teach! Another year has gone by and I'm happy to report that mine has been filled with exciting new opportunities and experiences, both in the world of accessibility and beyond. I hope that you listening here today have had similar success and that this busy and beautiful time of year is starting off well. Today to kick off this new season and another year of great conversations, I'm happy to be welcoming back a guest who has become a good friend and contact ever since her appearance on the show. We spoke then of the benefit of strong constructive relationships between parents, teachers and school administration and the value of bringing solutions to the table alongside the gaps to achieve meaningful change. Now, I'm going to get into the nuts and bolts of accessible playgrounds and play spaces and supporting students in their desire to play with our resident expert, Melissa Grasmick. Melissa, welcome back to the show!
[00:02:17] Melissa Grassmick: Thank you, I'm so happy to be back!
[00:02:19] Mihai Covaser: Since we've recorded our episode together, I know that a lot has changed for you, for both of us, uh, so I want to just give a couple minutes here to talk a little bit about your project since we last spoke and what's new with you in the world of accessibility before getting, like I said, into this nuts and bolts of accessible playgrounds, which I think is a really wonderful, student-focused way to kick off this new year of conversations on the show.
[00:02:43] Mihai Covaser: But, uh, how is Julia's Junction doing? What has been going on with that project ever since we last spoke?
[00:02:50] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, Julia's Junction was open to the public on July 31st, 2023, so we're a little over a year now into, um, yeah, just basically welcoming so many families and everyone from all over the region and beyond to our amazing playground. And, um, yeah, I mean, um, We, we raised $900,000 in about 16 months. And I mean, it was just an incredible experience.
[00:03:19] Mihai Covaser: That's incredible. I mean, the community support has been wonderful. I see it on social media when I check out the project and all that kind of stuff. I mean, everyone is, is talking about it. So congratulations again! Uh, I've had the chance to come visit since the last episode and see it in person. It's really great. So West Kelowna is very lucky to have that. And since then, you have started working in a bit of a new role, uh, with the company that helped you to put the project together, is that right?
[00:03:48] Melissa Grassmick: Mhm! So I've recently started a little consulting business, a little small business of my own, but working in close partnership with PlayWorld, which is the manufacturer who supplied the Julia's Junction equipment. They're an amazing company, and I'm so happy to be working with them.
[00:04:08] Mihai Covaser: If you don't mind, I mean, I will get into this a little bit later too, but what does that entail for you in terms of consulting? What can you, what do you do, or what do you plan to do for other communities?
[00:04:19] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, so I mean, building Julia's Junction and sort of going through that experience just really further fueled my passion and sort of need to advocate for inclusive playgrounds everywhere. And so I would love to see inclusive playgrounds in all communities, not just in West Kelowna. And so my hope is to be able to support and guide, um, people, so individuals or organizations who are looking to either, put in a new playground or refurbish their existing playground, um, with a real key focus on, um, inclusion and just making sure that it's safe and accessible and fun for all children.
[00:05:02] Mihai Covaser: Awesome. Yeah, that's really great. As, you know, one of my sort of core memories, if you will, from uh, elementary school, uh there was a big scandal for us around the game Grounders. I don't know if kids still play that, if it's still called that. I realize I'm getting on in age. Actually, I'm just celebrating my 21st today. So, it's been a while since I've been in elementary school. Um, but, you know, there was a big scandal about that, in part because of safety concerns, right? And that's not just for us, that's for all students that were using our playground equipment, is that, I mean, of course, kids probably shouldn't be running around with their eyes closed on, you know, at three meters above the ground.
[00:05:44] Mihai Covaser: But, nonetheless, some of the equipment was actually fairly problematic, uh, in this respect. So I think, even, and we'll get into this, uh, bit of the conversation later, but, accessibility and accessible playgrounds aren't just for the students that need them I say in air quotes So I'm sure we'll get into that in just a bit here.
[00:06:04] Mihai Covaser: Before we do, I just wanted to ask, you know, how's Julia? How's the family and uh, what's next for you all in terms of uh, you know, life's adventures?
[00:06:14] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, I mean, Julia is doing great. She's 10 now, so she's in grade five. She's loving school, loving her friends. She's playing sports. Right now she's into competitive swimming and wheelchair basketball.
[00:06:27] Mihai Covaser: Cool!
[00:06:28] Melissa Grassmick: Oh, I'll just add that we recently brought a youth wheelchair basketball program to the Okanagan, something that the Okanagan didn't have before.
[00:06:39] Mihai Covaser: You don't say!
[00:06:41] Melissa Grassmick: It was an opportunity for, um, you know, kids with physical disabilities to play a competitive team sport.
[00:06:48] Mihai Covaser: Awesome!
[00:06:48] Melissa Grassmick: It's kind of shocking that we didn't have anything like that until now.
[00:06:53] Mihai Covaser: Yeah.
[00:06:53] Melissa Grassmick: But, um, anyway, now we do. It's, it's a wonderful, uh, program. We have about, I think, 12 or 13 kids, um, signed up so far. Anyway, it's been great. And so, yeah. We can talk more about that after. But, um, she, she's doing, um, wonderful. We are actually in Louisville, Kentucky, as we speak, um, where she's doing a four-week rehab program.
[00:07:14] Melissa Grassmick: Um, so that's going well. And our son Tanner, who just turned five a couple of weeks ago, he started kindergarten this year. He was recently diagnosed with autism, um, just back in April. So, you know, that's been a little bit of a, of a learning curve for us, but, um, it's been, you know, kind of helpful in the inclusive playground school of thought, because, um, you know, now having two children with very different disabilities who, who need and want different things at the playground.
[00:07:46] Melissa Grassmick: Um, it's, it's, it's been helpful for me to be able to just kind of see it from all angles and fully understand all, all the different needs.
[00:07:56] Mihai Covaser: Right. Right.
[00:07:57] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, but life is good. We're plugging away.
[00:08:01] Mihai Covaser: Of course. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm sure that I'll, we'll get into that in just a moment here. And yeah, I mean, wheelchair basketball in the Okanagan. That's great! I know the only thing I'd heard of is that we had maybe some sledge hockey stuff going on. But yeah, I'm surprised we didn't, we don't really have anything along the lines of wheelchair basketball or didn't until now. So thank you for that. Congratulations!
[00:08:23] Melissa Grassmick: I mean, it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to be able to, you know, help facilitate, you know, the, uh, the start of these services. I mean, they're just so important for all kids, you know, team sports are so important, in my opinion. And so all kids deserve that chance.
[00:08:39] Mihai Covaser: Of course. Well, I think that takes us perfectly into the rest of our conversation for today, which is to talk really about the ins and outs of accessible playgrounds as your experience has informed you over the past year or so - or few years, I should say, in preparation for the junction - and what that means for schools and how it might actually be achievable in the realm of their, their own experience.
[00:09:04] Mihai Covaser: So just for a moment, don't go anywhere, audience. We'll be right back.
[MUSIC BREAK]
[00:09:19] Mihai Covaser: Welcome back to Help Teach, where today I'm talking to Melissa Grasmick, our resident, uh, accessible playgrounds expert and supermom. And today, uh, we're going to get into that discussion. So, right off the bat, I want to ask you, you know, I mean, this may- this may seem obvious to you or to some people listening, but in this process and in the years that you've been preparing to build the junction and to support Julia in this way, what have you kind of taken away as the importance and the value of having accessible play spaces for students that are, that are going to school?
[00:09:56] Melissa Grassmick: I mean, I can't stress enough that every single child, whether at school or out in the community deserves the opportunity to participate in free play. Much of free play happens on the playground. And, um, at school, recess and lunch breaks are often the only socialization opportunities for kids. So, like, during free play, kids really learn a variety of skills that are crucial to their development.
[00:10:23] Melissa Grassmick: You might not think that that's the case, but they really do. Um, Problem solving, taking risks, cooperating with others, turn-taking, like there's just so many little skills that, that kids actually learn by playing on the playground. And just because a child has a physical disability, or a social disability, or a cognitive disability, whatever the case may be, maybe it's a vision impairment. Maybe it's a hearing impairment. Why should they be denied this important learning? Right. And not to mention the fun of playing on a playground with their peers. So many children who do live with some form of a disability, whether physical, cognitive, social, whatever it is, they face a lot of pressure at school and school can be a hard place for them, right?
[00:11:11] Melissa Grassmick: I mean, there's, there's a lot that goes on at school and unfortunately, there's a lot of bullying and potential isolation, segregation. Um, it's, it's a hard time in a kid's life. And so, you know, if we can alleviate just a small part of that isolation and segregation by building inclusive playgrounds and allowing all kids to have something to look forward to at recess, make them feel like they belong like, isn't that all worth it?
[00:11:42] Mihai Covaser: I mean, that's really well said. And I mean, that touches a point for me too, you know, uh, about growing up in the school system and all that. I mean, I was very fortunate to find some friends that were all sort of nerdy and imaginative enough to do all our sort of make- believe games and whatnot at recess.
[00:12:00] Mihai Covaser: But if I hadn't, you know, kids were not very nice at letting me play soccer or, like, they, you know, the playground was not great for me in a number of ways. So like, I just, I can only imagine, right? Like if I hadn't had, if I hadn't met those people that were willing to just sort of stay aside with me and do, do what we did, um, it would have been a very different experience and, and not in a good way.
[00:12:22] Mihai Covaser: So, um, yeah, no, I really appreciate you saying that. I guess then the big question is- so we know we need the accessible play spaces. How does one even begin? I mean, I, you know, I don't expect that that teachers that are listening, I don't expect them to become experts on playgrounds all of a sudden from a 25-minute episode but I just want to go over some of the priority items that teachers and admin should think about when they're building or maybe when they're retrofitting their play spaces, which is something I want to touch on because retrofitting is almost always costlier and more problematic than just building it right in the first place, but regardless.
[00:13:04] Mihai Covaser: Maybe if you want to tell us, like, what does a minimally accessible playground look like and what does a maximally accessible playground look like? What are some of the things that you think about when you're looking at these spaces?
[00:13:16] Melissa Grassmick: I mean, I like to use the term inclusive when referring to playgrounds, simply because you can create an accessible playground, but it may not be fully inclusive. But if you create an inclusive playground, it's also going to be accessible. So inclusive just means, essentially, creating a space that everybody feels welcome and has an opportunity to be immersed in that, in that, you know, social play. So we aren't just referring to, like, the physical infrastructure, such as surfacing, although surfacing happens to be one of the most important features of an inclusive playground.
[00:13:56] Melissa Grassmick: But a truly inclusive playground offers social play opportunities for kids of all abilities together on the same playground equipment.
[00:14:05] Mihai Covaser: Okay.
[00:14:05] Melissa Grassmick: So, um, a couple of examples. So kids who use a mobility device such as my, my Julia, they need not only unitary surfacing, such as rubber like the poured-in-place rubber or rubber tiles or like a synthetic turf, um, but they also need wide pathways and access to the equipment so that they can either stay in their chair or in their walker or they can transfer out if they're able to. Children with visual impairments, for example, they, they really need those bright colours, um, organized equipment so that they can plan their, their path on how they're going to navigate the playground. Auditory features, you know, so that they can navigate. Maybe we have a couple of different auditory features in each corner and then they know where they are, they can orient themselves accordingly.
[00:14:56] Melissa Grassmick: Um, children with autism, like my Tanner and [00:15:00] honestly, one in 36 children have autism right now, which is almost one per classroom. So I just wanted to add that in because I was quite- I, I, just last month recently learned that statistic.
[00:15:13] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, that's, I didn't know that.
[00:15:16] Melissa Grassmick: That is, you know, it was, it was quite, quite high, you know, I thought. And so, anyway, you know, kids, kids on the spectrum, they, they often need a fully fenced play space. Unfortunately, most schools, especially in BC, do, do have that fencing. But they need quiet and enclosed spaces. Because sometimes they just need to take a break. They just need to, you know, take a minute to, to escape kind of, you know, the chaos of, of a typical noisy, rambunctious playground.
[00:15:46] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, no, those are some, uh, some really good points. Universal design is, uh, is a surprisingly difficult concept to wrap your head around, almost because you don't know what you don't know until someone tells you that like, oh, actually there's so many things that you need to keep in mind to make something really, fully inclusive.
[00:16:06] Mihai Covaser: But at the same time, once it's there, everyone benefits. Right? And I know you wanted to make a point of this, so- and I mentioned this earlier, but, but, how do you feel about maybe people that have reservations because they think, "Oh, I don't have all that many disabled students, for example, in my classroom, so why, why bother?"
[00:16:25] Melissa Grassmick: Mhm . I mean, to that I have a couple of thoughts. Um, first of all, you don't know when a child with a disability is going to enroll in your school. It could be tomorrow. Secondly, teachers, caregivers, parents, noon-hour supervisors, whatever staff at the school, um, who, who may need to assist and support children on the playground, what if they happen to be a wheelchair user?
[00:16:52] Melissa Grassmick: Right? We need to think about not only the kids, but also the teachers and the staff.
[00:16:57] Mihai Covaser: Mhm.
[00:16:57] Melissa Grassmick: Um, yeah, I mean, it's really just, one of the things when I was building Julia's Junction - not when I was building Julia's Junction, but as it was being built - from the very beginning of the process, I had this thought that just really stuck out to me, and I, and I told everyone, I just said, look, after this is all built and open and said and done, I don't want people to drive by and say, "Oh, there's the wheelchair park. That's the accessible park." I wanted people to drive by and say, "That is the best park I have ever been to! The most awesome, amazing park."And, um, and I think we honestly achieved that because Julia's Junction has been so busy since the day we opened. And neurotypical, able-bodied children, um, they are all loving it.
[00:17:49] Melissa Grassmick: It's so much fun. So I think you just really need to create different levels of challenge so that children who need more of a challenge, who may not have a disability to speak of, that they're also going to have fun as well. And that's where the design um, you know, and working with a certified designer, all, all comes into play, right?
[00:18:10] Mihai Covaser: Right.
[00:18:10] Melissa Grassmick: But there are experts for that.
[00:18:13] Mihai Covaser: Exactly! Like now, yourself.
[00:18:17] Melissa Grassmick: Well, I'm getting there for sure. Yeah.
[00:18:20] Mihai Covaser: Yeah and , and, you know, like I was saying before, this is something that I wanted to stress that, like, often I hear this, even when it comes to built environments, let's say at my university campus, right? Uh, we don't have a playground, but you know, in terms of the actual space, It's so- it's so interesting that all the time I'm hearing discussions about like, oh, retrofitting, like it's, you know, it's difficult, it's costly, it's, you know, what have you.
[00:18:46] Mihai Covaser: And my first thought is always like, a new building has come up, let's say in the past four years. Why is that building as inaccessible as the buildings that were built back in 2006 or what have you, when the, when the place was first, you know, put together? Like it just, it really, it shocks me that people understand how difficult retrofitting and building backwards is and yet don't- I actually saw a fantastic statistic from the Rick Hansen Foundation recently on this with um, for those of you that don't know, I'll link this in the description, but the Rick Hansen Foundation with which I work has a certification program where people can take a course and become certified to verify your environment, and basically give you a rating on how accessible it is, and give you a plan to help improve it.
[00:19:37] Mihai Covaser: It can cost as little as 1 percent in additional funding relative to the original cost of a project to improve the accessibility from an inaccessible standard to their 60 percent and above, which is an accessible rating, and as little as 3 percent to 5 percent to get you to their gold rating, which is like you know, uh, like excelling in, in accessibility. 1 percent in additional planning costs to, to make it from, from not accessible to accessible, like it just, it blew my mind, you know, so if there's one thing that I want teachers to take away, just as a thought, uh, to think about is that like, if people are, if this discussion is happening in your, in your district, in your meetings, and people are worried about costs, it's worth a review, that's all I want to say.
[00:20:28] Melissa Grassmick: Mhm, absolutely. And just to your point about retrofitting, I mean, obviously the ideal scenario is to build an inclusive playground from, from the beginning. However, I do want schools and educators and staff to know that often some of your existing equipment can be reworked into an inclusive design. You don't have to bulldoze the playground and start from scratch necessarily.
[00:20:51] Mihai Covaser: That's a good point.
[00:20:53] Melissa Grassmick: Um, you know, again, surfacing is one of the most important things you can do and adding in some inclusive pieces. It doesn't have to be, you know, a $900,000 playground and, um, you know, that's where someone like myself can, you know, really start to look at the nuts and bolts of a, of a particular playground and see what's possible, but you don't necessarily have to bulldoze and start from scratch. So I just wanted to mention that as well.
[00:21:20] Mihai Covaser: That's a good point. That's a really, really good point. So to that, then maybe as a last talking point, what can teachers do to request changes to their play spaces at their schools or to review them to see if they fit the bill, so to speak, of inclusivity? Like, you know, it may seem daunting Uh, you know if you've had a playground that that's been there forever, if you're just, you're "just a teacher," quote unquote, which I don't, I don't like the idea of but if you feel that way- Yeah, what, what can you do to sort of kickstart that process?
[00:21:53] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, I mean I was just a member of the West Kelowna community. I was just a mom and I, you know, it was something that I was passionate about and something that I felt needed to change. And I was able to partner with the right people, do my research, you know, put in the hard work for the fundraising. And here we are with Julia's Junction, right?
[00:22:15] Melissa Grassmick: So if you are a teacher, Um, any kind of educator staff member, and this is something that's important to you, even if you, um, know of a child who's maybe entering the school system in the next year or two, maybe you're friends with their parents, and it's important to you in any way, shape, or form. All it takes is one person to bring this forward, and you can rally together a team around you of people who are equally passionate. Um, talking to someone like myself. I mean, I've literally gone through this process. And not only do I have two kids with disabilities, but I've gone through the process of building a, you know, a very important inclusive playground from the ground up.
[00:22:56] Melissa Grassmick: So I can assure you it's possible, but it does take some hard work. There's no doubt about that. So I just wanted to talk about funding for a minute because I know that that's a big point of, uh, sometimes, you know, deterrent, right? It, it can be a deterrent for schools because, especially with the surfacing, it's much, much cheaper to put in some engine, engineered wood fiber, you know, those wood chips that you see at many playgrounds, much cheaper to do that than it is to put in the poured in place rubber, for example.
[00:23:26] Melissa Grassmick: The wood chips are not accessible, even though they, they claim to be, they are not. So if you have ever, uh, used a wheelchair or a walker or any kind of device, if you have ever had a vision impairment, um, if you have ever had a child with autism or sensory processing disorder, who likes to put things in their mouth, you will know that wood chips are not, not awesome.
[00:23:52] Melissa Grassmick: So when it comes to funding to, you know, raise the money to get this playground into place, I mean, there are several, several funding options for schools and as well for PACs at schools to be able to apply for. Um, and that's something that again, I can help with. I've, I've done a lot of research. Um, and we at the PlayWorld team actually have a designated fund fundraising coach and mentor who, who I worked with over the course of Julia's Junction.
[00:24:20] Melissa Grassmick: And literally his only job is to help you fund your project. So, it's great. But there is a provincial grant that most schools or school districts are aware of that does give 25 schools per year about $195,000. So just under 200,000. So I think it's a pretty competitive application process, but they do, they being the province, they do try to spread out the funding as much as they can throughout the province, um, based on need and that funding is supposed to go to inclusive playgrounds specifically; not just any playground, but an inclusive playground. So, um, that's always a good, a good starting point.
[00:24:59] Mihai Covaser: Yeah. I think that's really interesting and I think, um, it's a good, it'll be a good point to put some of these resources, um, to offer them in, in the description of the episode for, for folks to check out because, um, as you say, it's, it's one of the bigger deterrents and there seem to be solutions that, you know, that we can follow to, to make sure that the projects get through.
[00:25:19] Melissa Grassmick: Absolutely.
[00:25:21] Mihai Covaser: Well, then maybe I think that's a good point for us to close off on and to ask, um, do you have something that you want to say in terms of a key takeaway for teachers today to, to really keep in mind or staff at schools more broadly, um, when they're thinking about accessible playgrounds?
[00:25:38] Melissa Grassmick: Yeah, I mean, I think as a school, you play such a major role in a child's life. They're there for six to seven hours a day for many, many years of their life. Um, you can make a huge difference for children who may not typically be able to participate, um, by building an inclusive playground. So the bottom line is, in my opinion, inclusive playgrounds: like why are we building anything but?
[00:26:05] Mihai Covaser: Yeah, yeah. No, that, that's a really, uh, that's really well said, and like I said, I'll be, uh, adding a lot of information, including your information - that is, um, PlayWorld and, and, uh, you know, um, Playground verifiers and, and so on - um, to the description of the episode, so hopefully this show can also be a starting point, if you don't know where to go, if you don't know what to do, uh, and as you say: Maybe if at least one person is inspired by this and uses the resources and finds a way to make their playground accessible, I'll consider that, uh, a success.
[00:26:38] Melissa Grassmick: Absolutely.
[00:26:39] Mihai Covaser: Thank you so much for coming onto the show again, Melissa. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and, uh, well, I look forward to next time.
[00:26:45] Melissa Grassmick: Me too, thank you so much for having me.
[00:26:50] Mihai Covaser: You've just heard another episode of the community audio project, "Help Teach" . I'd like to give a huge thank you to my other co-leads on this project, Payton Given, Maggie Manning, Élise Doucette and Alexis Holmgren, all youth leaders at the Rick Hansen Foundation, who I'd also like to thank for their continued support in this initiative and others. My name is Mihai Covaser . I am your host, editor, and producer for this podcast series. Thank you to Every Canadian Counts and their # RisingYouth initiative for funding this project and for allowing us to put out our vision for change into the community.
[00:27:22] Mihai Covaser: You can find all transcripts, episode notes, and links to other resources on our base site, helpteach.transistor.fm or listen to us wherever you find your podcasts. If you have any questions about the show or would like to get involved, now get in touch at helpteachpodcast@gmail.com. That's helpteachpodcast@gmail.com.
[00:27:35] Mihai Covaser: Tune in next time for more great conversations and key takeaways that you educators can implement in the classroom today to make it a more accessible and inclusive place for all. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time!